Will: Hi Leslie, I'm so happy to have you on the show today. Thank you very much for joining us.
Leslie: Thank you for having me. I was starting to get a little FOMO not being on this podcast.
Will: Well, I'm glad we found a time to get you on here. And don't ask for too much because we might just invite you back on. So we'll jump in though, in your intro here, we kind of told people that you were from Sendoso, and I think many of us do know Sendoso, but for those of us who don't, could you just give us a quick overview of what the Sendoso offering is?
Leslie: Sendoso is the leading sending platform that delivers modern direct mail, personalized gifts, e-gifts and other physical impressions at scale. We're the only platform that includes multiple sending categories - direct mail, turnkey gifts, branded swag, and virtual experiences. Your team can start sending right away. I'm a really creative person, so the fact that I get to channel all of that through gifts really makes this the perfect job for me.
Will: Are there any really cool gifts you've seen or any gifts that you see your clients send that you just wish that they'd send you?
Leslie: Oh my gosh. Well, all the time. I do have an advocacy program and I've been with these people for three years and we're kind of friends now, so they'll send me some of their bundles just as a nice gift for providing the community and all the exclusive content that we're putting out. I think one of my favorite gifts was one that I came up with. I'm not biased at all. It was slides - they're sandals, but they call them slides. I created custom slides with our super sender logo. That's the name of my advocacy program. And they were actually an invite, a physical invitation to an event called Slide into Holiday sends.
Will: Oh, man.
Leslie: And I just thought I killed that. And I captured everybody's shoe size in an intake form that I have when they become a member. So I know everybody's sizes, everybody's birthday, and now I know everybody's shoe size. And so that was really cool. And they're actually like a customizable slide. So you can take off the front flap. And if I ever create another slide that they can just kind of snap that back into place.
Will: And when you say it's a physical invitation now, this is my own nerdiness. Did they have to present their slide to get in? Like, was it like QR code?
Leslie: It was just a gift to get them to the landing page to register for the event. The cool thing about Sendoso is when your gifts arrive, when UPS scans it, it automatically triggers an email to me. So then I can either just, if it's a small group, do the one-to-one communications where I'm like, "Hey, I see you received your slides. Here's the landing page to register for the event." Because you always want to follow up on that. You can't just let the gift sit there. And it really was great. I think I had like a 70% attendance rate.
Will: Yeah, I just, in my head, I was just imagining a whole bunch of people showing up and taking their shoes off and being like, scan me in. But I mean, I think it's awkward, but that's what I wanted. I just want to watch the awkwardness. Maybe not effective.
Leslie: Well, I think the pandemic really forced me to think outside the box. Everyone's stuck at home. And so with the slides, right? Everybody's stuck at home and wearing slippers or sandals. And so I really thought that would land well. And I still get emails, or if I see people, they'll just be like, "I still have my slides. They're the most comfortable slides I own."
Will: Nice. The win. Awesome. Maybe a pandemic topic for many, but I'd love to get a bit of a background on your career progress. I mean, I think many people that find their way into advocacy don't find it in a straight line. It's kind of serendipitous journeys. Would you be able to share just a little background on kind of how you got into this role?
Leslie: For sure. It's like my favorite story to tell. So I started my career off at Marketo as an SDR intern. Not an SDR, an SDR intern. That was fun. No, I thought it gave me a lot of perspective on how hard that job is.
So I did a really cool, wild thing to get recognized at Marketo. It was a Halloween contest and I dressed up. I should show the picture. I'll do a post on LinkedIn of this picture of me in a purple morph suit. I went to a mall to get the Marketo logo screen printed on the morph suit. And I went in there like, "I'm the Marketo mannequin."
Will: Yeah, I was like, okay, this is the greatest strategy to be the most known name but unknown face in the company. I'm loving it.
Leslie: But yeah, they're like, "Oh, you're that girl." And I've never really lost that girl. She's still here 10 years later. I put myself out there right now. I'm like into the big TikTok scene. And there's not a lot I have in common with that 10-year-ago person that I was. Except the fact that I will just do anything for these companies that I love.
Will: Yeah, it's what I mean, I think one of the great parts of that story, you really managed to explore the customer journey, right from SDR, from a place where they don't really know about you into working in those more customer-driven engagements, professional services, customer success management. Must have given you a pretty good view of that customer journey. Is that something you find helps you today in your advocacy role?
Leslie: Yeah, for sure. Just hopping back, hopping into when they become a customer. I just heard how lost people were in professional services. Some of them were crying to me, because back in 2012, marketing automation was a relatively new concept and not a lot of people were doing these mass emails. The token wasn't right and everything was exploding and the education piece wasn't really there and no one was doing customer marketing at that time.
I took on those emotions from when I was talking to those customers. I really want to help them. I want them to have something in their inbox as soon as they're thinking of it. If they're implementing the software and they think of something, I want the email to pop up with my name on it, providing them that relevant content at the relevant time so that builds trust with me. And then that lends its hand to when I ask them to be a part of the advocacy program. They're like, "Oh yeah, Leslie Barrett. She's been providing me great information since the beginning. Of course I'll join her advocacy program or of course I'll do a G2 review." And then when they get in the program, that's when I hit them with my personality and we start to get to know each other a lot better.
Will: So that's an interesting approach you're taking because I've seen a lot of customer advocacy roles and people really kind of put up a landing page and it's like, "Hey, identify yourself and you can be an advocate and then I'll get to know you." But it sounds like you're really starting at the very beginning of their customer journey. How do you develop that intuitive knowledge of what their next problem is going to be and when the right touch points are?
Leslie: I would say instead of just guessing, I do what's called a ride along. I hop on with the new customers on their onboarding. Occasionally you will have a customer who you just kind of know when you hear them - they're thought leaders, they're innovative, they're fun, and they don't mind that you ride shotgun along with them. We say, "Hey, I'm Leslie Barrett, customer marketing. I really want to go on this journey with you and to better improve the onboarding journey for our entire customer base. This is a big deal. And if I can be a part of your journey and get five minutes from you after every single touch point during the onboarding journey, this is going to be monumental for the rest of the customer base."
I go on all their zooms and then after each session, after a couple days goes by, that's when you check in with them, either by email or I create surveys. You want to just meet them where they're at. They're busy marketers. I do pop these people into my Slack community, so I'm able to meet them where they are in Slack or email or a survey. And I ask them things like, "Was anything unclear during that last call? Was it too much of a fire hose? What did you feel like you needed more of? What types of content would be good at this stage?" Really getting in their minds a couple days afterwards.
Will: And do you find that most people, when you ask for this, are open to it or do you kind of have to reach out to 10 to get one or something like that?
Leslie: Well, I would say that everyone's pretty open to it because of the people who I'm marketing to. I'm marketing to marketers and I think most people would be open to it because it's helping them at the same time. And if it's all in your positioning and how you position it with why it's important, what's going to benefit you in the end and why it's going to be a really big deal for the rest of the customer base. And after we go along this journey, the first thing I'd like you to do after you graduate from onboarding is do a customer spotlight and put you in the customer newsletter. So there's tons of ways that you can position it. And if you do try this and you are getting some no's, then I would just switch. That's what a marketer does. We just switch up our ask and most people are just human and they get it.
Will: And how much do you think those rewards, you know, whether it's being featured in the newsletter or some kind of gift, how much of that reward do you think is getting them on board or how much of that do you think is just helping build a relationship for down the road in the advocacy program?
Leslie: Well, we're Sendoso, right? So anytime I'm sending them a gift, I'm just modeling what's possible in our platform too. So for example, if I do a survey, we have an integration with SurveyMonkey that's absolutely brilliant. After they submit their answers, they hit submit and then an E-gift is sent directly to their email address and they know they're going to get like a DoorDash gift card, they're going to get lunch today. We do a Sendoso choice where it offers different gift cards. I think two is too few and ten is too many. The Sendoso landing page just looks best with four options. So I always do the Amazon for the Amazon lovers, a charity choice in case anybody can't accept gifts and wants to donate to charity, DoorDash or Uber Eats, and then either Barnes & Nobles or Nordstrom's because sometimes you just want to spoil yourself.
Will: No, that's a good point. And I like the highlighting there of the charity card. I know in some of our work we've definitely seen the concern about what happens if they can't accept the reward. As far as a maturity scale of a company putting together a rewards program, connecting with their onboarding program and pulling it into the advocacy space - do you have any thoughts there, any hot takes on when is the right time for a company to be looking at this?
Leslie: Of course, if you're in an angel fund or Series A, you can't just be doing these hefty gifting post sale. I still think that for the sales team and prospecting that this is a way to rise above the digital noise and get people's attention in really thoughtful ways if it's done correctly. But post sales, I think one of my favorite things is just to be super scrappy with gifting too. I don't tend to go super overboard on the Patagonias and the North Faces or the electronics and Bluetooth and all that kind of stuff.
Let me give you an example of something that I believe is becoming a fundamental expectation in onboarding is to receive a little something when someone signs the deal and a little intro to your CSM. This could be a handwritten note from your CSM like, "I can't wait to get started with you. We're gonna kill it. We're gonna rock and roll." Show a little bit of your personality. Maybe there's a business card in there with all their information. What is that? $5? Great, send it.
And then let me give you an example of an onboarding gift that I'm sure if you're listening, you've heard me talk about this before, but I really just thought it was so powerful. I believe if you buy it in bulk it's like $1.09. But it is Jelly Bellies. It's a pack of Jelly Bellies with a custom logo right at the top. And you pick your two colors of your website colors. For us it's orange and teal. So you have a bag of the orange Jelly Bellies and right in the center is a teal jelly belly. And the message is like, "Get ready to stand out with Sendoso." A dollar, right? And it just delivers, the message lands and it's super cost effective.
Will: Yeah, I think that's something important for us to remember in all forms of customer marketing, but especially when it comes to gifting that our grandmothers probably said it - it's the thought that counts. Often it's the act of receiving something and having that moment in time to engage with that brand beyond just a sales call or an onboarding call. I love that idea and I think it's easy for us to all say, "Oh no, I've got to send an iPad." But I don't know about you, I think that I've got a few expensive toys I've purchased over the years that are pretty good at collecting dust.
Leslie: Right. I believe Slack does this really well. I remember receiving it when we onboarded with them - instead of a big folder full of paperwork, it was actually just a very small, maybe like a 4 by 6 booklet of how to get started. And you leave it right next to your computer and it doesn't take up a lot of room on your desk. It's just a way to kind of like a quick reference guide. I just thought that was pretty smart to make it a small little booklet so that it won't just go in your drawer. And it's just right there for when you need it. So I am really all about the content at the right time, in the right time of their journey.
Will: Yeah, absolutely. You know, you've been running the advocacy program over at Sendoso for three, three and a half years now. How does that connect with the advocacy journey? When someone becomes part of the advocacy program, how are you identifying the right moments to engage with them with the right advocacy action or ask through your program?
Leslie: Sure. Let me give you a little background on the program. It's called the Super Sender program and it's for our marketing power users who are all tackling how to rise above the noise. They range from super successful raving fans to people who just really believe in what we're doing. And they are in it just to have access to our products team because they want to be able to influence where we're going.
We have a Slack community. I would have started that earlier. I don't know what I was thinking. I launched the program and they kind of were all just floating around. I mean, it still was great. And I still think advocacy professionals are doing it this way where they just have a nurture stream in Marketo and they're providing exclusive content and doing exclusive events, which I'm doing all the time.
But to have something and somewhere to go - I just should have done that the day I launched the program, just had a free Slack version. So lesson learned there. Now that I know these marketers and they tell me the value of the program and they're putting it inside G2 reviews, they're putting it in their trust radius reviews shouting from the rooftops "Join the Super Sender program."
And then as I mentioned, I plan all the user groups, webinars, happy hours, and it's a chance for them to ask their burning questions to each other. And the lesson there is that even if the user group is really small, just keep planning them. It's almost like if they don't make this one or even the one after that, they know that extra support is there if and when they need it. And I do believe that support is critical for retention. Last year we landed at a 97% retention rate for our program members. To leave Sendoso is leaving our community and they just simply don't want to give up the relationships they've built and all the exclusive content and events.
Will: You know, I really like that. A few key points there for me. First of all, I hear so many advocacy programs that are really about paying people for testimonials, if we're just direct about it. It's like, "I want you to do a case study, do a video and do a testimonial and I'll pay you for it." I really like that you're talking about the community aspect of the sharing, but also the access to people and to resources and to help.
Leslie: Yeah, I mean we have looked into community platforms. I think I did a 40-slide deck on the benefits of Insided, Higher Logic, Salesforce communities, Zendesk and looked into all of them and seems like we have a community that's going pretty well. And so for us we're just not there yet. And it's rocking and rolling and until they tell me differently, I always take my cues off of what's going on in that community.
They're talking about something, then I just create a user group around it. They want to know how to do something, they post a question, then I'm just creating exclusive content about it. So they really guide where this program is going. And it took me about two years to build out my pillars for the program and I didn't understand how important it is to build out the pillars of your advocacy program in order to protect your department.
My three pillars of advocacy and how I build my program is around learning and career development - so that exclusive content and those exclusive opportunities for these folks. There are some people who want the speaking opportunities, who want the PR spotlights. They also want and are really passionate about becoming a better user with your platform. That's one pillar. The next one is peer networking - so all of those user groups, webinars, the community aspect in Slack. And then rewards and recognition - that's where Sendoso fits so nicely into rewarding and just being fun and doing surprise and delight programs.
Will: I think that's a really solid point there. Advocacy programs can have a tendency to get watered down a little bit muddy to find their value. And I love that idea of having a clear vision and strategy and getting that buy-in at those higher levels. I always look at it and it sounds like you've done this very well - a great leader is someone who communicates their vision, gets buy-in to their vision, but gets such strong buy-in that when they tell someone, "I can't do that because it's not part of the vision," people are like, "Oh right, right. We believe in the vision. This was a silly ask."
Leslie: I think earlier on in my career I was just like, "Yes, yes, I will do that. Whatever you need me to do." And that's kind of like the evolution of the advocacy strategy. It's just learning what is gonna move the needle for your department and sticking with it.
Will: Wonderful. Well, it sounds like you got all sorts of really exciting things you're doing there. Are there any key lessons on this journey that you just wish someone had handed down to you when you started three and a half years ago?
Leslie: Yes, I was thinking about this. This has actually been really top of mind for me. There's two things. One, going back to how much I care about the customer - I really care that they are successful with this platform, not only because it benefits me as a customer marketer, but like, this is just such cool stuff and fun and creative and these are my people.
But I really wish that I would have enabled the sales team a little bit more. I was so focused on enabling the customers that I kinda lost sight of the fact that our sellers are gonna need to know the success of our customers. And you know, the world does too. With all these case studies and video testimonials and reviews. We're currently number best software products on G2.
Will: Oh wow.
Leslie: And so I was really heads down and then I kind of popped my head up and was like, "Oh my God, these poor sales guys, they're stuck at home, they're all remote. What about these new folks that are coming on board and are having to listen to GONG calls?" Love Gong, thank God it exists, but how many GONG calls can you really listen to?
So I'm now trying to right that wrong. I'm doing so many things for them. I'm creating group reference events where I'm getting two advocates to jump on an event, making it an intimate event where we're having one advocate to every 10 prospects on the call. And we're really digging into the challenges, their stories and letting these prospects act like it's a one-to-one reference call and ask their questions.
Another one is enabling the sales folks with Pocket Stories. You don't always need a full blown case study with metrics. You can just give sales little snippets that are going to help them with their talk track and their own storytelling. Part of being a good salesperson is to be able to tell a good story and sell it. So anytime I talk to a customer and they're telling me something about what they're doing, it goes in that Slack channel. And then I have Tuesday's story time with Leslie Barrett where we'll go into more of a success story. So I've laid it all out on the table of what not to do. But you know, in my defense, I'm one person.
Will: Yeah.
Leslie: It was a lot to do for three years. Thankfully I'm growing the team this year. I don't want to say it was all on me. It was really hard to build what I built solo. But I do respect the sales team and want to make sure they succeed.
Will: Yeah. And I think this is a fascinating space in customer marketing and customer advocacy and just recognizing how far it reaches across the customer journey, but how deep it reaches into the company. From sales to marketing to success to product. These advocates, these great customers that then everybody wants access to that resource. And it's a tough challenge out there still. And I don't think it's a completely solved space for anyone, but it is a great opportunity for all of us as we look forward.
Leslie: Yeah, for sure. I mean, I believe that our advocacy program is an absolute differentiator in the market for us. Simply put, our competitors just don't have this community. And I was doing some research in the community space, and if they start now, it'll take them a year to get to where we are.
Will: Right.
Leslie: And, you know, like, I don't know if I should be saying that, but better get on it.
Will: Well, you'll be a year further ahead though. Right? It's a never ending race to catch up. And if you don't start now, it's a pretty hard one to run. Wonderful. Well, Leslie, this has been really enjoyable. I really loved this conversation and really enjoyed digging into so many different facets of customer marketing here. Before we go, where can people connect with you? Where can they find you online?
Leslie: Yeah, sure. So I'm on LinkedIn under Leslie Barrett and then you can always email me at
[email protected]. And then also I'm on TikTok now. Having so much fun with the TikTok. I'm under the handle CMA Soulmate.
Will: CMA Soulmate. I love it.
Leslie: You can talk to your CMA Soulmate if you wish.
Will: Nice. And thank you very much for your time here today. I'm really looking forward to be able to share this with all of our audience and I'm sure we'll have many great conversations in the future.
Leslie: Of course. Thank you so much for having me.
