Episode Transcript
Will: Hello and welcome to the Advocacy Channel, a customer marketing podcast. I'm your host, Will Fraser and this is our sixth episode and the first of 2022. I'm thrilled to be joined today by Trisha Diamond, Director of Customer Success at Fiverr. Today we're going to be talking about Fiverr's unique approach to building genuine customer connections in a double sided marketplace. And Trisha is going to share with us how she helped build the department from the ground up. Good morning, Trisha. Thank you very much for joining us today.
Trisha: Good morning, Will. Thank you. I'm really happy to be here.
Will: Wonderful. So, Trisha, I think a lot of people have heard about Fiverr, but can you explain to us what Fiverr is in your own words?
Trisha: Fiverr is an online marketplace for digital services. What we do is we connect businesses of any size to freelancers or agencies to get work done. Anything from logo design, website creation. We've got over 400 categories of services, so pretty much anything can be done through Fiverr.
Will: So you probably have a pretty good sense of a wide variety of different businesses and a wide variety of different contractors through your role, right?
Trisha: Yeah, I like to think so. We definitely work across. We have eight different verticals. Anything from design already, but like writing in translation, voiceover folks that work on podcasts. So I like to think that we really get to experience a lot through the marketplace and definitely myself in my role, working with our customers.
Will: Awesome. And let's talk about that role a little bit. You're the Director of Customer Success, but I find that that doesn't always mean the same thing depending on where you go. So maybe you can help us understand what is the customer success department all about and what is the Director of Customer Success role like at Fiverr?
Trisha: Starting with the department itself, you're right. It does mean something different everywhere for us. At Fiverr, we don't do customer support. We have an amazing customer support department that handles that. And it's not even like traditional account management either. We're more like experienced managers. We work directly with our customers, really helping them maximize what they get out of Fiverr, whatever that might be. And it looks very different for each type of customer. As a Director of Customer Success, what I do is I lead four teams that work with unique segments because we have a very different approach with each one. Some customers, if they're a freelancer selling on Fiverr, for example, their goals and what they need to achieve their goals are very different than what a small business is that's looking to just get a little bit of help, few hours here and there, versus an enterprise business that wants to outsource a large marketing campaign through the marketplace. So we have those four different tracks and what my role is to keep them going, keep us growing and touching more and more of our customers as time goes on.
Will: I like the concept that you mentioned. Experience management. That's a really fun way to look at it. How do you get your team members to understand that concept? Because that seems powerful but also nuanced, I might imagine.
Trisha: Yeah, you know, it is. But it becomes very natural because of the way we work with our customers. It's never like a touch and go relationship. It's ongoing. I have people in the marketplace that I have worked with now for over six years and becoming really close and developing that relationship. You really understand what your customer needs as far as their experience, not just working with you, but across the whole business. And it comes naturally. But what I do is we tell our team, get to know the customer, hear them, listen to them, and if you follow the customer's voice, the experience is going to come with it.
Will: Yeah. That's awesome. That's awesome. You said you've got these four different tracks that you split it up into. I'm kind of curious, were those four tracks obvious from the onset or is that something that you evolved over time?
Trisha: Absolutely not. We have changed and pivoted so many times in just the six or so years we've been doing this. We first started out working with our sellers on Fiverr. When I started the program, I was really looking at companies like Salesforce, who, when customer success was very new, leading that. But also companies, marketplaces like eBay, like, what did eBay do to support the people that were selling on the marketplace? And we were really in this. We're like, this is the program for sellers. This is what they need. But for sure, we learned a lot along the way and we listened to our customers and we pivoted as they need it. And we also learned that it's not just our sellers that need us as well. Like anybody who's using Fiverr potentially would like the help of a human being.
Will: You know, and that's a funny way you put it. You know, anyone using Fiverr would like the help of a human being. And I think that that's often tries. We almost. There's a mystical belief in technology companies that you can automate everything out.
Trisha: Right. You know, and for sure, like Fiverr is very automatic. It's very easy. It's designed to not need human intervention as much technology is, but in the end, like, we're all still people. And for sure, does every single person log on to Fiverr and go, ooh, I really hope I get to talk to Trisha today? Probably not. But when you need that, when you're not sure what to do the next step is, or you're overwhelmed by the options, it's nice to have somebody there that you can connect with and trust and help really navigate you through not just what you're doing on Fiverr, but how that relates to your business as a whole.
Will: Yeah, no, how true. I mean, I think we can easily forget sometimes that, you know, really, at the end of the day, we all sell trust. You know, people have become a lot more comfortable putting their credit cards into the Internet, but at the end of the day, it's still trust. And if it's my business, whether that's me selling or me buying for my business, those are pretty high trust initiatives.
Trisha: Yeah. It's the most personal thing, I think, to many, many people, especially those that are just starting up or creating something new. Your business is who you are in a lot of ways.
Will: Yeah, absolutely. And you touched on that really quickly. But I want to dive deeper into. You kind of said when you started customer success at Fiverr, I mean, just casually, when I just started it, no big deal. Can you just tell us a little bit about what were you doing before? Were you hired to do this? Was it organic? How did you get into starting the custom department?
Trisha: Oh, my gosh, Yes. I love to tell this story. Like, for me, it was very serendipitous. Prior to working at Fiverr, I spent a little more than a decade in a consulting firm. It was really exciting again there. I learned a lot of different industries and things, but I wasn't really feeling fulfilled, and I wanted something new, and I didn't really know what that was like. I knew I really enjoyed managing the relationships with our clients the most, but I didn't understand what customer success was or anything like that or what the best thing to do is. But I saw this opening for this really cool, like, hip startup company called Fiverr, and they were looking for customer support, and I was like, you know what? Let's try this out. Shortly after joining, I was given the opportunity to develop what we were calling an account management program at the time. Like, you know, would you like to try this out? Of course the answer was yes. I was the only one to start it off. But from there it really, it's history, I guess.
Will: So when you got tapped for that kind of account management role, was that what kind of role was that? A director or a VP in the company that was putting that together or was that just kind of more grassroots or how did that look?
Trisha: So I was tapped by a VP that was initiative that he wanted to bring on. But yeah, and from like really it was though, with no limitations, which is both exciting and also terrifying. Like, you know, the first task was like, think about, come up with a vision. What do you like, you know, like, put something on paper and we'll talk about it. And to this day, I think that is one of the most difficult tasks I've ever done.
Will: Yeah, no starting from scratch. I think that's why it's so interesting. You know, when you look at that vision, if you can remember that original vision you had to today, you know, is there any resemblance or do you think it was just the journey has been so full circle that maybe it's almost a new vision today?
Trisha: Yeah, you know, so the vision and the mission, I guess they've really evolved over the years, but I think the foundations is the same. Like, the thing that I wanted to do was always to bring a human approach to this technology. Like, I want to feel the customers, I want to know who they are and leverage them also to help grow the business. Like, grow them, grow us, like, align the goals, those principles of customer success, how we do that, what the day to day looks like, that is what has changed. I feel like it changes every six months. And if you're adverse to change, this might not be the initiative for you.
Will: Fair enough. And I'd love to dig in. What does that day to day look like? How are you managing quite a large customer base to drive those customer success interactions? How does that happen today?
Trisha: Yeah. So, you know, going back once again to technology, we rely a lot on data. Like we have a lot of, whether it's models that help us predict if somebody's high potential or sometimes just listening, you know, someone will reach out to customer support or reach out to even like myself through LinkedIn and just be like, hey, like I'm looking for something. So we're leveraging the data for sure to understand, like what patterns do customers have that usually indicate that they're looking for a little bit more. You know, how can we look at their experience and see if their experience is not so great, of course, like, how can we help? But even better than that, how can we come in at the signs that the experience might go the wrong way and send somebody in to say, like, hey, like, we're here. What can we do to help? But so the day to day, though, largely looks at a lot of dashboards. Very fun to start out. All the customer success managers, they have a portfolio of customers and they kind of look at who needs them the most, and they prioritize in that way.
Will: And when you're looking at these predictive models, I guess the question I always have is, are the predictors the ones that you logically thought they would be, or are there some kind of unexpected twists that you may have found along the way as to what suggest someone's doing well or not well?
Trisha: The one thing that I believe is universally true, when you're working with customers, there is always an unpredicted twist that comes with it. I'd say, like, for sure, there's a. I don't want to say it's a margin of error because it's not really an error, like, if we're ending up in front of somebody for a different reason than we expected. But there's, for the most part, it's pretty good. And of course, as we learn the models get better and all of that, we really reflect also the experience back to our data teams and to our product managers. It's not just them going like, hey, this looks really good and the results are nice. We also come back and we say, well, the customer didn't feel quite the same about that. They didn't feel that was the right point. I'm not sure if I'm answering the question clearly enough for you, but for sure, the data helps, but the data is never the whole story, right?
Will: Absolutely. And I think, you know, to where I'm kind of curious is if I'm someone who's just trying to build a predictive model, you know, I'm on board. I love this idea of predictive model. We want to know who's likely to be more successful or less successful and how can we get in there and intervene if there is. If I was just going to build my first model, I'm going to ask for the horrible universal truth here. Is there one indicator that or a few indicators that you think are like essential to any kind of predictive model?
Trisha: Hmm. No, it's a good question. First, I want to say before you start building that model, though, interview your customers, ask them, ask them how they feel, what they say, what they do, when their experience is good and when it's bad. Because those are probably going to be those universal things that you'll want as the foundation for your model. And I know that's a very non scientific way of bringing it up and there's a data scientist out there somewhere listening, going, oh, come on. But ask them first because your customers are really going to tell you what you need in that.
Will: So I think what you said there is really important though is to just ask the customer. And it's interesting to me because I continue to see this conflict in people where they simultaneously want customer input and yet are afraid to go get it. What's been your experience when you try to reach out and ask the customers, what is that experience like for you?
Trisha: Every conversation is different and for sure some of them are much easier than others. But in the end, and I don't want to sound like anybody's mentor or manager here, but all feedback is good feedback. Even if a customer comes to you and says, I'm really frustrated about A, B and C1, you should know it. You should absolutely know what frustrations your customers have. But to understand the value to them that they're able to express this to somebody. Because how often have we all filled out like say a survey on a website, like, how was your experience today? And you're like, actually it was really bad, but you never hear anything again. Like, how does that leave you feeling? Like, can your mind be changed just because they sent you a survey? Like, probably not. But we've even done follow up on surveys before where we say, like, hey, you know what we saw? Like you weren't happy. Do you want to talk about it? We can get on Zoom, we can get on Google Hangouts, whatever you use. And we could talk face to face. And the folks that take us up on it, they're really genuine and they're really pleased that we wanted to hear about it. And just that openness for sure makes the conversation easier. But don't be scared, like, we're not perfect. No company, no person, no anything is perfect. And the way that we get better is that we know where we're not so good to start with.
Will: Yeah, excellent point there. Excellent point. You said, you know this, the success department has existed for six years now, I think you were saying.
Trisha: Yeah, about six, six and a half. Yeah.
Will: So during that time, I assume you've run a whole bunch of different kind of initiatives, you know, customer engagement type Programs. Is there one program that kind of stands out to you or one initiative that over those six years of pivoting, as you've said, you were really the happiest with or the most excited by the results or something to that matter?
Trisha: Oh, that is such a big question. I don't know. And then, like, who's listening? Like, I don't want to not name their thing that they were part of. But seriously, like, every step has been like, even if it wasn't exciting at first, I could look back at it with a lot of excitement. What I think my favorite thing is is that we're often involved in very strategic initiatives for the company. Like, if we want to try something new or prove out a new program or concept or product, we often come in to really understand the qualitative side of what's working. We really assist product, market fit. And any of those things are the most exciting to me because you're like, again, you're on the ground, you're building something new. You have a lot of influence in how this product or program shapes up over time. But I can't pick a favorite. Will I really. I don't know if I could pick a favorite.
Will: It's like when I ask my mother who's her favorite child? I mean, I know it's me, but she won't say it.
Trisha: Right? Right.
Will: No, no. So what would you touch on there, though, is this idea that customer success doesn't work in a vacuum. You know, it's not just customer success that it's strategic initiatives. There's interaction with other departments. And I think that that's generally a great idea that people accept. But it's tricky in practice, you know, figuring out where customer success actually kind of sits in the world of, you know, how does customer success work with marketing or with other strategic groups? Do you have any experiences there you can share with our listeners or any advice you can share with us?
Trisha: Yeah, absolutely. So in Fiverr, in our customer success, like, we are literally intertwined with probably every department, nearly every department here. I guess I don't talk to, like, procurement very much, but seriously, I'll use the marketing example we work really closely with. We have a loyalty program at Fiverr called Fiverr select, and that works with one of our marketing teams. It's a super great program, but one of the value propositions we have for that is that you have access to a team of customer success managers. So if you have a new project that you want to start on or Trisha (continued): a huge like long series of things that you want to carry out over the next six months to one year, you can connect with somebody again like via video conference or via email if it's more comfortable for you and you have somebody that can kind of guide you through like the right types of services that you need. For example, maybe somebody's like, oh, I want to start a podcast, so I need somebody to help editing. We might go, well, how are you going to market it? Like, are you going to have bumpers? Like, there's a lot more to it. And we kind of come in and help them fulfill that story. And at the same time, though, because we're talking to these customers, we're always hearing their feedback about the Fiverr select program, about Fiverr in general, what sort of things they think that Fiverr should be there for them. Like, you know, as a marketplace that helps you curate freelancers and agencies, like, what else do you think we should do? Should we be sharing with you more education or more communication about these types of topics? And we work so, so closely with our marketing departments in that way.
Will: That's awesome. I mean, I think that in the cynical world, someone could think of customer success as a cost center or just as a way to maybe try to retain an unhappy customer or something like that. But what an awesome story or an idea to propose customer success as actually a value add to a rewards program. This is something you've kind of earned access to.
Trisha: Absolutely.
Will: And it's a real value. And truthfully it is a value, but it's a great perspective flip on that kind of cynical view of customer success as a rebranded customer retention line or something to that effect.
Trisha: Yeah. And I have to say, pretty universally among the customers we talk to through this loyalty program, they're like, this was such an unexpected benefit. Like, I cannot even believe that I'm getting this right now. And it really drives like a long term relationship with the brand, which is in marketing, what you're trying to do.
Will: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. You know, if we've got a listener today that's trying to drive a customer success department or improve their relationships or customer relationships and they can only really get one piece of advice. What's that big piece of advice you'd have for someone out there who's just wanting so desperately to drive this customer success type relationship?
Trisha: So you said one, I'm going to say two, but I'm going to briefly touch on the first one because I mentioned it earlier, but one is be prepared to pivot and change, like as your customers need. Like that. I said it already, so it doesn't count. Right?
Will: Okay, fair.
Trisha: The second one is, I would say if this is something you really want to push in your organization, is find the other people in your organization that can be like your partners or your advocates or the folks that could really use the customer point of view in their work, whether it's a large department or a single stakeholder in a smaller department. Think to yourself, who could do what they're doing right now a little more effectively if maybe they got to talk to two or three customers or they had some insights and that we could gather from maybe a few hundred customers. Like, you know, don't go too big too fast and show up to the CEO, be like, all right, so this is what we're going to do. I'm going to need 35 employees. And I mean, maybe that'll work for you. So if you think it will, go for it. But like, you know, start small because there's always somebody in an organization, their goal is to get their product out to more customers or to retain more customers and propose to them, like, hey, why don't we talk to a few people together and you can really start small that way. And that's a little bit about how we started and really gained traction to working with now pretty much everybody in Fiverr.
Will: Finding that way to provide a small incremental value increase to someone and show the value of what customer success can do and slowly build those champions and that buy in. So then you show up and tell the CEO you need 35 people.
Trisha: Right? Exactly.
Will: Imagine, you know, you have like it like the way that a lot of SaaS companies work. Like you find a champion in the organization and they start using your product and they spread it out. Like, take that principle and use it internally.
Trisha: I like that a lot. Trisha, the idea that think of customer success as a product that you're selling internally could very much help people understand how to like to build champions and drive that adoption. Yeah, there you go. I mean, there's a meta situation. A customer success manager for customer success. Too far. Too far.
Will: I don't know. It sounds like my dream world.
Trisha: Trisha, this has been absolutely wonderful. I think this content is going to really sit well with our listeners and I want to thank you very much for all of your time and experience you've shared with us here today. Before we go, if a listener wanted to connect with you. They wanted to kind of follow what you're up to. What would be the best way for them to find you?
Will: Oh, please, please find me on LinkedIn. You could just look up my full name, TrishaDiamond. It's pretty unique. You should find me fairly easily.
Trisha: Wonderful. And we'll link to that as well in the show description for anyone who wants to connect with Trisha. So, once again, thank you so much for your time. I can't wait to talk again in the future.
Will: Oh, thank you, Will.
