What’s Next in Customer Advocacy?

Will Fraser: Liz, Dina, thank you very much for joining us on the show today. So happy to have you here. I'm so glad you could make the time to join us and talk with the audience. Dina: You are very welcome. Liz: Thanks for having us, Will. Will Fraser: Yeah, you know, we gave a brief intro before the show started about what you are doing at Captivate Collective, but I'd love to hear from your own words. For those who don't happen to know Captivate Collective, what is it that you're doing today? What kind of work do you specialize in? Dina: We specialize in customer advocacy. That's who we are and what we do. That's what our agency is focused on. We don't dabble in it. It's not something that is just kind of on the side of what we do. We are laser focused on customer advocacy and that means that we work with clients to put together customer advocacy strategies, program strategies or full portfolio strategies for our larger customers, brand work for customer advocacy programs and then getting into some of the nuance of the types of programs that our clients are looking for. Could be an awards program, could be a cab, but everything we do is through the lens of customer advocacy. Will Fraser: And you know, you're kind of mentioning some of your larger customers - what does a typical group that you work with kind of look like? Dina: It really spans. We work with some of the biggest enterprises on the planet in the tech space and then work with some smaller, small, medium size clients as well. We play in both of those arenas. Just the complexity of the big organizations is really the differentiator - the practice of customer advocacy and how you do customer advocacy really well doesn't change. Will Fraser: And you mentioned tech there... Liz: I was just going to add on to that. I think the important thing is not so much size or even industry. Although of course, a lot of our customers tend to be in the tech space. But we really look for those organizations that are bought into what we call the advocacy mindset, which is we've kind of moved beyond "okay, let's set up a program and let's get customers to do a bunch of stuff for us" more into the realm of "what can we offer customers to build a mutually beneficial relationship?" So those organizations who don't just give lip service to it, but really are believers in that advocacy mindset of, obviously we have to bring value first and foremost in order to build longevity in the kind of relationship that has the outcomes most organizations are looking for in an advocacy program. Will Fraser: And just to maybe double click on that point for a second, Liz, do you find that that's the majority or the minority of companies you talk to that are in that mindset today? Liz: You know what? I think it sounds good to all companies because everyone knows the law of return. Basically, we can look at our own relationships and we can see that if we're focused on me, me, me, it does not make for a good relationship at the end of the day. But I think when you dig in a little bit more, you can kind of see the organizations who are really focused on bringing value to their customers versus not just giving that lip service, but the ones who are looking for more of a transactional approach of "no, we really just want to make sure that we get what we want from customers and we can throw some fun and cool stuff at them." The difference being relationship - what we typically delve into is do these organizations have a good relationship with their customers? Do they want a relationship? And that can be the make or break it for a good advocacy, true advocacy program. Dina: I think it's evolved in the last, say, well, how long have we been consulting this? Seven years. Seven years ago, you would have a new client come into the office and right away they would say, "I want 50 new referrals in the first quarter, and we have to hit 25 million in referred business in the first year for me to consider this successful." And I think now that talk track has changed. Just through Covid people understand now and just through the nature of SaaS and how business has changed, people now see the longer play of relationship and aren't adverse to the idea of having to invest up front to get something in the longer run. Will Fraser: And by chance, do you think that's kind of connected to like people really coming back around to retention? And, you know, that idea of an existing customer is worth so much. I mean, I think we all learned it at some point, probably in a marketing book older than I am. It was already being talked about, but it feels like there was a return to that during COVID maybe. When budgets got tight, people started doing what I dare say they started doing the smart thing. They started doing the thing that they always knew but was a little bit harder. Have you kind of seen that trend as well? Dina: Yeah, absolutely. A few years ago, I was at a conference and Meg Hoyer, who's amazing and brilliant and smart and talented, did a conference session on what if you spend all of this money on all of these different initiatives, but what if you just hyper focused on improving retention by 1 or 2%? What does that actually look like? And how do you get there and how can you maintain that type of focus and measurement to get there? And when someone lays it out in black and white and just shows you that just 1% makes a massive difference rather than all sorts of kind of fluffy other numbers, then it certainly makes other conversations that we can have with our clients more meaningful. Will Fraser: And I know we're kind of going everywhere here, but I just want to keep going down for a second because I think this is - you're so right. It's like the black and white. This should win, right? This is such a strong argument that a dollar saved is worth so much more than a new dollar booked. But it still feels like there's a lot of companies not really buying into that, even though the black and white is there. Are you seeing that really shift or are you still kind of, in your view, is that still a problem? Continuing: Liz: No, I think we're seeing a huge shift. So, for instance, when Deena and I started - not to date ourselves - nobody had customer advocacy as a title. I actually thought to put it in my title because I just thought that's what I love and that's where things are going. And now with the meteoric rise of customer marketing and customer advocacy titles, even just this year we've been talking about, it's been a banner year for customer marketing. We went from no conferences to now there's going to be like four live conferences this year and all sorts of things just proliferating right now because everyone sees that this is a rising practice and everyone kind of wants to be a part of it. I think where some of the skepticism may still live, Will, or may come into play - I think is a healthy skepticism. Because as people started jumping on the bandwagon of "oh yeah, we need customer programs," sometimes the thought process was like, "value to the customer, value to the customer," but that still needs to be done in a measurable and organized practice way, not like, "oh, we're just going to have conversations and give away stuff." So you saw a lot of new programs popping up and the idea was just get members, just make customers happier. But there was no rigor to the practice, and things were hard to measure and tools were scarce. And now as things are maturing and the practice is maturing, there is good, healthy emphasis coming back to those original programs. People are going, "okay, but what's the return on investment?" And sometimes that's okay. Like at a certain stage to say the return on investment is we have people that we're building relationships with. That is great. But there always comes a day in every program's life where someone takes a look and says, "okay, but what if we put that money somewhere else? Can you tell me that that wouldn't have a better return on investment?" And so there is now a demand for more rigor. Liz: I think you do have a healthy dose of skepticism from maybe people who don't know how to measure that, haven't seen it done well, have seen a lot of money wasted in the past. B2B SaaS specifically, I mean, we're seeing everyone kind of jump on the bandwagon. And now it's more about, well, if everyone has a program, how are people deciding which programs to be a part of? And do we have saturation? We're not there, but we're constantly thinking ahead to that day, like, okay, this is the rise, this is the wave, but what's going to happen at the end of that wave? Will Fraser: You know, that's an absolutely amazing point to make. Earlier we were speaking and you had mentioned about the idea of mature advocacy programs and helping them go on. Is that possibly close to this idea of mature programs - as this becomes more common, we have to go beyond the standards? Maybe you can start just by helping us kind of understand what you think a mature program is and help us understand how we kind of help that keep evolving. Liz: Absolutely. I was giving Dina a minute there to like, pop in if she wanted to. We do think about maturity a lot. I mean, we started when things were extremely immature and Dina ran a whole program out of a spreadsheet for years, and that's what was available and it was a good program. But of course, things have really evolved. The ecosystem has evolved, the data sharing - whoa. That has completely evolved as people try to make the programs more and more relevant and get more and more value out of these standalone programs back into the organization. We're also seeing a lot more emphasis on the teams that are built around this and how those are evolving. When we look at program maturity, we do look at a set of criteria. We actually even created a maturity model around it. These criteria are bucketed into three groups: the experience for the advocate, the program execution (so what's the technology, the resourcing and the budget behind that), and then the business impact of that program - the outcomes, that's usually where everyone starts. Liz: Usually everyone starts with "I have like five outcomes I want," but what are those outcomes? How are they evolving? The brand of the program specifically, and then the alignment to all the other internal departments. So there are many factors that we look at, but they all play into this idea of program maturity. Will Fraser: And I think that's interesting. One of the things you touched on there, that I've been definitely seeing and hearing a lot, is really around that data sharing. Whether it's because maybe there were nine small initiatives that were fully siloed in different organizations or in one organization that just didn't get to cross pollinate, but that data sharing, I think is a real sign of mature programs - that they're actually getting that proper cross pollination, not just from the advocacy team to one group, but really to every group that they participate with. I guess the question to kind of ask is when someone gets that right, what's the superpower that you're seeing them unlocking? What's the advance that you get from that? Dina: Well, I'll let Liz speak to the technological impact. I think when you have an advocacy program or portfolio that is really well integrated technologically in the business, that's also a sign that that program or practitioners or that team are well integrated in the business. Because it takes a lot of buy in to get people to want to unlock their tools, let you plug into their tool. With my program many years ago as an administrator, it took well over a year to get a Salesforce integration because they were just like "get in the queue." I didn't have that buy in from that side of the business. So these folks who are doing a great job, who are integrated and know how to use the tools and the data flows - hey, customer advocacy professionals don't have to be experts at technology data flows. There are people inside your business who are experts at doing that. But you have to understand the tools and the outcomes to understand where do you need to pull data in from to continue to show the value of the program. Liz: I think this is where programs are still really immature and to no fault of the practitioners. It is a complex thing because businesses tend to be extremely siloed and data is just all over the place in most cases. But I think as programs mature, there is this healthy focus now, similar to what happened with COVID and the focus on retention is on this customer experience. And we're starting to see - it's just so no brainer - but people don't really like going to four different logins or five different logins. It's a lot to remember, not to mention the other 10 vendors they work with and their four or five different logins. I remember when the proliferation of streaming services came on board and everyone started branching off to have their own streaming service. And I was just so frustrated because I was thinking this is not a good experience for me as a consumer. Now I have to have five different logins to watch my five different shows. So I think, as all things do, pendulums swing and there is now a swinging back toward, "okay, this is maybe not the best experience for customers." What I want is an integrated experience where it's just kind of understood. And what we typically see is no, those data, that data isn't shared very well or it certainly doesn't inform the customer experience. When I'm going through a renewal process, that's one thing. But when I'm inside of the advocacy program, if I'm in a branded advocacy program, it could be totally different. I could be at the bottom whereas I'm having a renewal over here where I'm spending millions of dollars. But that's because I'm not doing a lot of activity over here and I'm spending a lot of money over here. Liz: So I'm treated quite differently in my customer journey in these two places. I'm really looking for programs to mature that and bring those two things together so that when I have a support interaction and I happen to be someone who's done an amazing amount of advocacy for your program, that is somehow acknowledged inside of my support interaction. It's not two completely siloed different experiences. But again, we understand even though we love this vision and we see some people are dabbling and starting to break through those silos, it is a difficult vision just because of how enterprises are run and set up. Will Fraser: You know, I think it's interesting because these points really dovetail. We have this challenge you're talking with Dina about getting priority with that Salesforce integration. And then this substantially better user experience when we can get that integration across both of them. And I do agree with you Liz, that I think the tides are changing a little bit and customer experience is of course coming more and more to the forefront. But maybe for those out there who are still trying to fight the good fight and get that priority to get the Salesforce integration or to move it forward, any anything you're seeing that's helping advance that cause that's helping people get the priority and resources they need from multiple teams to move towards this idea? Dina: It's also a part of how we look at maturity and that's the outcomes and the alignment of outcomes to important to the business. So instead of coming in and trying to get in a queue because you have some random program running, some random kind of hyper departmental outcomes, if you're not aligned to the top line of the business, then it makes sense that folks who are get in line ahead of you. So that alignment of outcomes of the mission and vision for what it is that you're trying to do with customer advocacy is key. Liz: Yeah, when a client comes and they say to me, "okay, tell me what I should be measuring in my program," I could tell you like 10 typical things, value you could derive from your program, but that is backwards. What we really want is to look at what's important to the organization at the very top level and then understand what we want the outcomes of the program to be. People hear about advocacy programs, they see a lot of nice metrics or numbers we'll call them, but then have a very hard time storytelling the impact back to the organization. And that's because what they're doing may just be creating a lot of great content, or it may be making some good relationships happen over here. But if it isn't a story that can align into the key initiatives of the organization at that time, that story is just lost. So it's much better to make sure that your program is strategic because you are strategically using that program to help grow the business. Your job as an advocacy professional is to build advocacy with your clients, of course. But one thing that people really don't focus on is you're like the middle management. You know how hard it is to be middle management - it's very hard. You have someone telling you to do this from above, and then you have to communicate all that down below. As an advocacy professional, you are building advocacy with your clients, but you're also building advocacy internally. You're doing both sides of the fence constantly. You have a dual role. And that can really trip some people up because they'll focus on one or the other to the detriment of that program. We always say it's a unicorn role. You've got to have a lot of skills to do it well. But when it's done well, it's very impactful. Will Fraser: You know, I want to dig in a little bit deeper to this single login experience. But before I do that, I just want to go back. I totally hear the unicorn type role you're talking about in this idea to build advocacy. And I think sometimes in a world where we want results now, trying to level set how long it's going to take someone to actually develop that buy in internally to get those resources - what kind of timelines do you think someone should be saying? How long are you seeing that taking people? Obviously I assume there's a range there, but I'm just curious if we can help level set some people so they can stay strong during the fight. Dina: I think it really varies organization to organization as you said Will, there's a real range. For us when we come in to work with a client who doesn't yet have an advocacy strategy, it's usually about 90 days, you know, 60 to 90 days end to end to deliver that strategy and then it would be another three months if you're implementing a tool typically so you could have something pretty decent stood up in six months and then you are going to get out of it what you put into it. So plan to have some time where you are nurturing those relationships before you are asking. But having said that, we are working with a client right now and had a workshop this morning where the goal of the project was to develop a customer advocacy program and then go ahead and stand that up. But when we went out into the research and talked to the clients, it became just abundantly clear that that wasn't going to be the right approach for them. Based on the customer feedback and research this morning, it was quite a pivot to say, "okay, yeah, I think that this is going to be a longer runway before we start to see real results." But we're committed and we're committed to nurturing those relationships, building relationships customer by customer and picking up what wins we can along the way. But backing off of, you know, X number of customer stories within the first 30 days type of information. Will Fraser: Yeah, that's very interesting. I love hearing a story where you go in and talk to a customer and genuinely understand what they want. And they're like, "hey, may not be what you're looking to hear, but let's walk through how it's going to really be." And I think that's a lesson that so many people in customer marketing can take - we're trying to deliver value to the customer. And yes, at some point we hope that exchanges for commercial gains for ourselves. But that's not as simple as running an ad campaign. This isn't like we're going to go put some creative up, run it to a landing page, send them and ask them to convert. But I think that there still is, whether it's from executives or from more inexperienced practitioners, there's still some expectation that I can just flick something on and in a month I'm going to be a rock star. And I'm glad to hear that you're helping coach people through that and helping them kind of discover what great things they can do, but in a realistic point of view of what it's going to take. Dina: Yeah, it's not always easy. It's not always easy. There are some customers who will, right out of the gate, have just a frenzied group of customers who are super excited to be part of a branded advocacy program. Happens all the time. But that's not the reality for everyone. There's definitely different shades of customer advocacy, and it's figuring out what's the right shade for that organization, where they're at in that relationship with their customers. Liz: And I do think we will see it become more difficult. There was this lovely golden age where you literally stood up a customer program and it was so novel in the B2B space, to get invited to join something that was branded a club of sorts. But it is not as novel as it used to be. In some industries specifically, it is still quite novel. But in a lot of other industries, specifically tech, it's not that novel anymore. And so people are not going to flock just because - there has to be something very valuable. And it's not going to be just swag. And I love swag, by the way. Feel free to send me your swag, anyone who's listening. But that's just not going to do it. That's just a nice to have. Really digging into this level of what are these people, this group, what do they want and need? And how, if at all, can we step in the gap and offer to help fill those needs? And that means more and more and more. You can't just have this big, broad program because people are very individual. People have individual needs and wants and desires and personalities. The maturation that we are seeing is we're going from these big, broad programs where we just throw every customer in and watch it just take engagement by storm. But more, it's about what are the segments within our customer base that make sense to create and nurture that relationship? Liz: Because they have something of value that we would find useful in helping to grow our organization, but we can also help them with their professional growth or a specific need or desire that they have. Let's build a great program for them. And then maybe we have this other group over here - they have totally different wants, desires, needs, and we need to figure out what those are, and we need to cater that engagement to them. So instead of a single program, and Dina, you threw out this word at one point already, this idea of what we term a portfolio of advocacy. So you don't have an advocacy program. You have an advocacy practice. We're just really bullish about this. We don't like when people equate the advocacy practice to a program. We don't equate sales management or sales operations to just HubSpot. Our sales function is not HubSpot. Obviously, nobody believes that. And so we need to get away from the idea that our advocacy practice is a tool that we use. That's not correct. You need to start thinking much bigger and much more strategically because you have a lot of nuanced needs in your organization and in your customer base. Will Fraser: You know, and maybe this ties into the conversation we'd had before around this idea that you've got to reach that advocate at where they are. And you had mentioned this idea that you're continuing to develop around ungated programs versus gated programs and the different things that people can participate or different ways that people can participate and want to participate. Maybe you can kind of share a little bit of your thoughts on that and where you see that going. Liz: Yeah, absolutely. Dina: Go ahead, Liz. Liz: Man, we're so similar. We even were both going to answer "yeah, absolutely." Absolutely don't spend any time together at all. Dina: Right. We work together for a long time, Will. Liz: I think you're hitting on this idea of - holistically, we have coined this term called Advocacy 2.0, which is okay, we've mentioned some of the ways advocacy came to being and how it started off and had a bit of this golden age, but now we're really in this next phase of advocacy. And one piece of that next phase is the focus on how to engage with all our customers, not just our VIP or our happiest, but how to do that in a personalized way where there is meaning and value to that individual and how to follow that journey, that personalization and that engagement across their customer journey. And of course, a customer journey isn't again, like in one platform or whatever, it's through multiple channels. And so more and more this idea of a login - we have this cool graph that unfortunately we can't show on a podcast. But there are circles and the center circle is, okay, here's my branded advocacy program that lives right there. But the outside circle from that are people who engage point in time. It's not that they're not advocates or they don't want to spend any time with you, but they're just not going to join some type of formal program that's going to require investment beyond the day to day. They may not see your product that way and think that it requires any more engagement on their part, or they just may have no desire or they may not like the types of activities included in those types of programs. But that doesn't mean that they're not engaged and willing to do acts of advocacy along their customer journey. So starting to think outside of like, "oh, we're pulling people over to this program and this is where we ask them to do X, Y and Z." That's fine. I mean, we're all for that. We help people create programs. That's our bread and butter. But we really like for people to start thinking about this outside circle where people along that journey, you're able to engage them where they are at. Liz: Dina loves to say advocacy happens everywhere. It doesn't need to be confined to one program or one platform. But as people do this naturally through their customer journey, are we capturing that and are we building processes into that customer journey that capitalize on these opportune moments? And I think that's where the practice is very immature. It's kind of "here's advocacy siloed over here." But nobody really wants to work with the support team on how to operationalize picking up a piece of advocacy after a really great support engagement. One of the ones - I'm sure if you've heard me on anything, you've heard me talk about this, because it drives me insane - but the renewal, the act of renewal is like the greatest act of advocacy, and it's virtually ignored. There's no celebration. There's no badge. There's usually no swag. There's like zero that happens there. And it's so strange to me that we don't count that as advocacy. And it's not recorded in somebody's advocacy profile. It's just kind of like, that's just table stakes - they have to renew. But the most important thing they can do, we nurture. We nurture. But we don't nurture very well throughout the customer journey. And then we certainly don't capitalize on the opportune moments throughout that customer journey. So once people have that solidified advocacy program - that's just where people typically start. But as they start to think bigger than that, we are seeing people open to this idea of, "okay, how do I integrate advocacy into the customer journey?" Again, you are going to run into issues. It is very difficult to integrate into a customer journey that's been built outside with different tools, different channels, different data sets, et cetera. And so my advice then is always baby steps. Like somebody, we have to crack the code at some point. So pick three moments and try to build processes that result in measurable activity, nurture, or outcomes for advocacy. And then we can go from there. But we have to start taking those baby steps. Dina: And this all comes back, Will, to really our foundational firm belief that customer advocacy is a practice. It is a strategic business practice. It's not a platform, it's not a tool. It's a practice. It's a set of best practices that, when implemented in different ways across the business, can lead to the same outcomes that people would be looking to drive inside a standalone program. The practice of advocacy doesn't change. You're just changing where you're trying to implement those best practices. So whether you have moments of truth, points of friction on that customer journey, apply the principles of customer advocacy to those moments. And that could just be to nurture their relationship or, you know, the renewal, hooray. Great. Like, let's see something happen here to recognize it and celebrate this achievement, this milestone. Or it could be, hey, this person's just come off a support interaction. They went in there really hot and they came out totally satisfied. Let's let this ride for maybe a week and then potentially we ask for a review or some sort of ask, because we know that that person is kind of now up on a little bit of a high coming out of this great support interaction. Will Fraser: Do you think it would be fair to say, kind of in a somewhat hierarchical view of customer interactions, that maybe we started with customer support and we've developed customer success and that we're really graduating into the layer that is customer advocacy and that that touches the customer journey from very first interaction all the way to the end. But it's kind of a layered evolution. Is that a fair way to maybe look at it? Liz: Yeah, I don't know if I've ever really thought of it, Will, but I do think I'll use that word 'table stakes' again. It's so funny because we were talking to a client today about the hierarchy of needs. For an advocate, if we're looking at it from a customer enablement perspective, the support is that base need. You gotta help me use my tool. I bought something from you, you gotta help me use it. So if I'm having technological issues, you need to help me resolve them. That's the base. And then I think what you're saying here is then we evolved into this - oh, maybe we should - well, with the evolution of SaaS and the reduction of on-prem and all that kind of stuff, we are now at this point of, oh, we need to, we're responsible for their well being with the product, their success with the product. So we can't just answer technical issues when there's a problem. We have to proactively ensure that they are successful and that's customer success, which turned into a wonderful relationship as well for the customer. This other layer, I think you could be right, Will, because then you get to this top layer and you're not even just thinking, "oh, how do we make them successful with our product?" You're a bit beyond that question because hopefully you have these two already in place. Will Fraser: Yeah, yeah. And the only reason I ask is because I think what you're kind of describing is this evolution of advocacy to a place where advocacy is not just like you said, it's not just the branded program, the inner circle. It really starts to look at that interaction. And we were just speaking with Sendoso about this in an earlier episode where they're doing advocacy, like when you sign up, like when you purchase. How does advocacy get involved at the beginning of the journey. And I think that's kind of similar, a little more advanced, maybe hear what you're describing. But kind of that similar idea that it's a layer, not like a point, if you will, or something like that. Dina: Yeah. Will Fraser: And I think spitballing on a podcast, because why not try out new ideas? Liz: Why not? Dina: And you could argue that advocacy even begins before the deal is done. Especially when you think about excellent salespeople who are masterful relationship builders versus those who aren't. When you think about bringing in a one-to-one reference who's well coached, well nurtured and well spoken, what's happening in that interaction is they're demonstrating to that prospect what that experience is going to be when you become a customer. Look at how good they're treating me. Look at what my journey with this organization has been like. So you're already sort of teaching that prospect what being a customer advocate for the business could be for them, right? Will Fraser: Absolutely. Maybe we'll step out of the pontification of new ideas in the live audience. But you are pushing the bounds of advocacy programs. There's no questions there. You're working with major brands to really develop what advocacy is going to mean for years to come. And we've talked about the branded program and that is what many of us, I think, think about with advocacy. But there is so much more. We talked a little bit about Advocacy 2.0, but I'm always looking for the next cool thing, the next big thing. Are there any either emerging trends you see or great ideas you just wish your clients were ready to adopt that you can kind of share there? Dina: I think one trend that has just kind of popped its head up here over the last six to eight weeks. So super late breaking and I say it's a trend just because I've had three clients all wanting to have some sort of focus in this area. And it's the area of executive advocacy. So not a customer advisory board, not just another executive kind of wine and dine program, but taking those principles of customer advocacy, the best practices of customer advocacy, and applying them to this audience that since the beginning of customer advocacy time has kind of been like executives don't - they're not so much bought into this idea of customer advocacy. Dina: Seeing that as a trend with folks looking to stand up customer advocacy type programs, but focused on that executive audience. And obviously, executives aren't going to come into a, typically speaking, they're not going to come into a gamified platform and do funny things or social things to earn gift cards. Right. So it's not that, but it's the principles of customer advocacy. It's about understanding who the customer is at a really deep level. So getting beyond the kind of superficial information that's already in the CRM or having a quick poke at someone's LinkedIn profile, really understanding their wants, needs and desires, motivating them, nurturing them through different types of activities, value add activities to their time, where they are in their career and where they are in their journey with you and then activating them when the time is right around the metrics or activities that matter to the business. So we're seeing big organizations who are starting to lean into this idea of executive advocacy. I think that that's going to emerge as a trend, which is great because I've always said executives are people too. They go home on the weekend, they kick the ball around, they tell jokes, they drink beer. So executives are people too. And it's been a really long time, I think since executives have been looked at as people who also could be interested and motivated and activated if treated in the right way. Liz: Yeah, I think we had a conversation the other day about would executives appreciate entertainment at all? They do like to be entertained. They actually - we do like to be entertained. And then I would just add to it is not this idea - and you've already hit on it a little bit Will of that the idea of channels and where we meet people. And this is no breaking news, but obviously the lines are blurred between personal channels and business channels. And I do think we have reached a point of saturation with email. I hate to say it, but I delete a lot of emails without even opening them. And it may even be programs that I'm part of or know of or whatever. But unless I am absolutely sure there's something valuable in there, I will default to deleting. Liz: And so how do we, as we get to points of consumption or saturation, how do we reach people? How are we heard? And so I've been a big proponent of other channels for a long time to get people's attention. I'm still a fan of like the only thing where the green button is ever totally gone, in this case, a red button is my text. If someone sends me a text, I am still looking at that text. I think we'll see engagement start to happen in messaging platforms, like whether it's Facebook or Twitter or LinkedIn or whatever it might be, where the experience is starting to become totally integrated. And we're seeing that a little bit with - as people look at tools to build community, even with their customers, a lot of people are opting for Slack. It's super easy and you can just spin something up. But the real reason there is almost everyone has it. And so you're starting to see that idea of, well, what does almost everyone have? Where can we make the ease of entrance extremely - just not even a blocker of any kind. And so I do think that B2B, even B2B organizations are going to have to start thinking along those lines as it becomes less and less desirable to have so many different tools, so many different platforms. Will Fraser: Yeah. And I kind of - the underlying trend, I think I kind of see in both of those things you just shared with us, there is almost the continuation of consumerization, if you will, that idea that no executives are people too. We can interact with them. They want entertainment. And at the same point, like meeting this business person where they are in their world. I mean, I don't know about you, but Slack has blurred the lines for sure in my life between personal and professional and is used for many things. And I really like that idea of how do we get away from whether it's an external branded program community must go somewhere else to blend that in. Or how do I just communicate in meaningful ways with my advocates through the channels they're already using? I think both of those are great thoughts for us to take away and I'm definitely excited to see where the world of advocacy goes with the two of you helping push it forwards. Will Fraser: I know we will definitely not be anywhere near where we are now in a few more years with you two helping us advance it. So I'm really glad that we've had the time here today to learn just a little bit, just the tip of the iceberg of what you're doing and how you can help. Before we go, how can people find you if they want to learn more, they want to talk? Dina: We've got our website, TheCaptivateCollective.com or LinkedIn. You can find us either of those channels. Will Fraser: Wonderful. Well, I just want to thank you both very, very much for your time here today. I've sure enjoyed this conversation. I'm sure the listeners have as well. Thank you very much for your time. Dina: Oh, thanks, Will. Thanks for having us. Liz: Thanks for having us, Will. It was fun. Will Fraser: Thank you. Liz: Bye bye.