Episode Transcript
Will: Hey Joel, thank you so much for joining us here on the show today.
Joel: Yeah, really excited to chat all things case studies and buy in and alignment and get in the weeds a little bit.
Will: Awesome. So in the intro, our listeners just heard that you were with Case Study Buddy, but maybe you could give us just a little overview, a little taste of what Case Study Buddy is all about.
Joel: Yeah, sure. Case Study Buddy has been around for over seven years focusing on one subset of really challenging problems - how do you do customer success stories well, how do you get teams aligned, how do you tell compelling stories? It's all about operationalizing, creating and proliferating customer success stories. We work with mid-size to enterprise companies. We're different in that it's not like hiring a freelancer - it's like bringing in a whole department to help handle everything end-to-end with a proven process. We do written collateral, video collateral, bringing all those pieces together to give companies a whole campaign's worth of content from one solid interview. That's what we hang our hat on. We focus on B2B and after over 2000 stories, there's still things that surprise me. It's an interesting space.
Will: And how did you get into this space? What brought you to it?
Joel: My background is I used to be a digital agency brat. Started in SEO, always loved writing but never saw a career path in it. Eventually the industry turned towards content. Went out on my own doing conversion copywriting, and then got asked to do a case study by someone on the board of a company I'd worked with. They needed one for a company called Ping Board and asked if I could do it. I said sure, I'll figure it out. Through doing that project and investigating best practices for interviews and structure, I realized these are really difficult to do well - lots of moving pieces, stakeholders, things that can go wrong.
Looking around, I saw there weren't many people focusing solely on this. Casey Hibbert was kind of the queen bee, with some freelancers doing it among other things. But I didn't see dedicated teams devoted to solving these specific challenges. Because they're such difficult assets but have so much versatility, I saw potential for them across the buyer's journey. The difficulty meant you could charge a premium. I thought if I could build a team and repeatable process around this, I could make it work as a company. We started quietly for about a year testing things, and two years ago my partner and I made it our full focus to see how far we could take it.
Will: That's an exciting story. I love that tenacity at the beginning where you just said "yeah, I'll figure it out" and watched it blossom into something successful.
Joel: It's been a ride with surprises at every stage. There are unique quirks to making case studies your primary business that other content businesses don't have. But what I love is that because it's challenging and evolving, there's always more to learn. When we started, customer marketing wasn't really on my radar as a dedicated role. That's certainly changed. Even though people look at case studies as just problem-solution-results, the deeper I go, the more there is to refine and explore. That's what keeps me and the team passionate.
Will: Yeah, well with doing over 2000 case studies, what do you think are the key ways for a marketer who's been tasked, just like you, to write a case study? What are the key things they need to think about and do to get started?
Joel: Number one is realizing you cannot do these in a vacuum. Case studies are a team sport. Different internal teams all have a role to play - from CSMs and AEs who make first contact and nurture relationships, to marketing figuring out what to create and how to tell the story, to social and ads teams driving ROI. Going in with the notion that you cannot do this alone and that you need other people - your job is almost being a herder of cats, wrangling processes and systems.
Another shift in mentality is that these are not just an output. They're the byproduct of a program. A program needs processes and systems underpinning it to make it work, especially if you plan to scale. It's one thing to do this once, but making customer stories a bigger part of your sales and marketing mix never happens by accident.
You also want to go in thinking with the end in mind and have a strategy. It's not just about slamming together metrics and quotes. You have the opportunity to be intentional about the stories you tell. We call them coverage gaps - you don't have to just say "here's a win." You can be very intentional about what gaps you're looking to fill. Are you looking for rip and replace stories of people switching from competitors? Are you trying to disambiguate use cases people don't know about? Are you trying to be prescriptive about how to do something? Are you appealing to particular roles?
Understanding you have the opportunity and obligation to go in with a plan. And think about deployment - where do we want to use these? A lot of companies produce these and tell one story one way, one time, and forget about it. You can think about what sales needs - is it a one-sheet? A slide deck? A video? What does the site need? What does social need? Going in and mapping out your plan should inform what you capture and create.
Will: That's a really good point. I think a lot of people do come at it from that starting point of "we're doing an interview and I need questions." I really love your concept of coverage gaps. Since I first heard this, it's definitely changed my thinking around case studies. How do you recommend someone goes about identifying those gaps? What's the best strategy you've seen work there?
Joel: I think start with yourself in your role. If you're in marketing, look at the landscape of assets you have and identify what's missing. What stories are we not telling? What campaigns could benefit from having social proof? But don't stop there. Talk to sales and leadership and ask "what coverage gaps do you have? Where are you light? What anecdotes do you wish you had? What competitors are we facing?"
Start with these internal conversations across departments looking for what's missing or what would help them make more sales or run stronger campaigns. From leadership, what are our goals? What markets are we trying to enter? What's changed in the landscape? Before narrowing it down, start with conversations to get a lay of the land.
Then from there prioritize. In the next quarter or year, what would have the greatest lift? If you're trying to close enterprise accounts and have enterprise customers but no enterprise case studies, that might be where to begin. If a competitor is making mistakes or changes that are alienating customers, you might start there.
There can be different types of coverage gaps. Rip and replace stories, competitor switching stories. Maybe you don't have content appealing to CTOs - you have marketing stories showing ROI numbers but nothing showing technical implementations or compliance wins. You can think on a role level, industry level, use case level. Maybe you've gone through mergers or built platform add-ons people don't know about - who are the power users already using those successfully?
You can also look at buyer journey stages. Maybe you need stories about premium upgrades for nurture sequences because reps struggle getting people to see upgrade value. So it's conversations, prioritization, then being intentional about who in your customer base you approach to close those gaps.
When these things are documented, it makes conversations with different teams much easier. It makes nominating candidates easier, identifying wins easier. It gets everyone watching for the same things instead of just saying "is this a win?" or "this is a big logo, maybe we should ask them." It brings intentionality and strategy to your storytelling.
Will: Yeah, those of us who've created case studies have definitely had that feeling before where you just go to your success team and say "hey, who's ready for a case study? Who's good?" And it's a very tough question to get a good answer for.
Joel: Yeah, and I want to preface that by saying if case studies are new to you, establishing these things can help and is important for alignment. But realistically, in the early stages if you're light on samples, your coverage gap might just be "we need some really solid, well-designed, well-told stories to use when pitching for other stories." That's completely valid. Early on, you might take all comers, but as you get more sophisticated, having tools like coverage gaps outlined in an SOP becomes very important for getting teams rowing together and avoiding internal conflicts of "this isn't what we're looking for" or "I don't want to ask them." Defining these things at any stage is valuable - it's something you grow into versus snapping into all at once.
Will: One of the things you mentioned is talking to other team members and figuring out their gaps. Any tips on how to make those conversations productive? My experience has been if I ask an imaginary salesperson "what kind of case studies do we need?" they're likely to tell me about the deal that's currently not closed. Any tips for making sure those are productive discovery conversations?
Joel: I think don't necessarily preface it with "what case studies should we have" - though you can mention you're planning content. Instead of focusing on the here and now, encourage them to look for patterns. There's always recency bias about current hot deals. But ideally talk to multiple people and look for themes.
Instead of asking about case studies, ask about their day-to-day. What objections do they routinely face? What is marketing misrepresenting or not explaining well? Sales loves to poke at marketing depending on company culture. What stakeholders are vetoing deals? Where are things getting stuck? What roles are skeptical that you lack good collateral for?
By asking about their conversations, patterns, objections and opportunities - not just "what case do you need" but "what would help you sell better?" Ask about their KPIs and goals. Then you can come back with "would it be helpful if..." Would it help if we targeted this vertical? Would you be more likely to hit KPIs if...? Once they say yes, great - here's what we need from you and how we'll support you.
Joel: Communicate from the outset that you're having these conversations because you want to create something ideal for them. You want to build something that fits their medium, their circumstance, their buyer's awareness level. It's not marketing's pet project or "please give us data so we can do our thing." It's "you have a voice in this, we want to build something for you." I want to understand your situation and what formats and angles you need so I can make your life easier. That's very different from marketing showing up saying "we've been tasked with case studies, what do you need?"
Will: I wish that sentence wasn't a commonly used one, but I'm sure more than a few departments have shown up saying exactly that - "We've been tasked with this, now tell me what I got to do."
So, you've got the coverage gap determined, thought about the rollout plan and where to use this content. Then we ultimately come to identifying and asking a client to participate. What strategies do you see work there and what doesn't work?
Joel: Buy-in is by far the biggest challenge teams think they have. I say "think they have" because the real biggest issue is internal alignment, which hinders buy-in. But when it comes to making the ask, lots can go wrong. First, this is a team sport. You in marketing may not be the most familiar or authoritative person with that individual. If you swing in as a complete stranger saying "will you be part of a case study" that's terrifying to a lead who's never heard from you. It feels very corporate, not personal or beneficial. It feels like "I'm being hounded by marketing, they want to put us on display."
Ironically given we're called Case Study Buddy, even the language in the ask matters. "Case study" sounds clinical and exposing, like they'll wheel you out on a gurney and analyze you. It's intimidating and can make people feel like it's more of a take relationship than mutually beneficial. "Oh they want to analyze our results, expose what we did, showcase their work."
Joel: When making the ask, have it come from the person most familiar or most authoritative. For enterprise deals, you probably want the CSM or rep closest to that customer making the ask. Or look to your C-suite - do they have relationships or strings they can pull? It gets attention when a CEO or CMO makes the ask. You want someone authoritative or familiar, ideally both.
Second, tell them why them specifically. Make it a personal ask, not a form letter. Why are you approaching them? What makes their story compelling? Even if you're using a template, which we do advise for consistent expectations, make it feel one-to-one.
Also demonstrate what parts of their story you want to discuss. Ambiguity breeds fear. If they don't know what you want to talk about, what metrics you want, they'll imagine worst-case scenarios where you're giving competitors everything and making them look foolish. Come to them saying specifically why you're asking, what story parts you want to feature, and how this benefits them.
Incentives can range widely - from just the coverage and spotlight, to SEO links, to discounts which need disclosure. Give them a sense of the benefit and that you'll make this positive and flattering.
Be very clear about the process and involvement required. Don't leave it feeling open-ended where they wonder "will they film in our office for hours? Do I need to review 20 drafts?" Have something ready - we use a pitch packet, some clients use case study 101 decks - that lays out the process, timing, and their agency in reviewing and approving content. This gives them something concrete to take up the ladder instead of just asking "Boss, can we do a case study?" and getting shot down.
Will: And let's say I did give an incentive. You mentioned briefly that you should probably declare that. Any advice on how to declare it without making it seem like you bought the case study?
Joel: Right. Not legal counsel - want to preface this because the FTC has very capable lawyers. So take this with a grain of salt, but to the best of my knowledge, I think you call it out. You can mention it in the footer, for example. I don't think you have to make it sound like "we bribed this person to say nice things." But I believe you can say "this person received X in exchange for time spent sharing their story." If it were me, I'd follow up with "all metrics and statements have been confirmed accurate and signed off" - couching it that we didn't pay them to lie.
To the best of my knowledge, if we were doing it, we'd just mention they received this in exchange and metrics were verified by their company. Call it a day. I don't believe you need a blazing banner at the top. And that's as much as I feel comfortable saying because it's a thorny space. You also question like - if we send a gift card after the fact, is that really something that needs disclosure? Let your conscience be your guide.
Will: Yeah, I've definitely seen that one before where there's no promise of compensation, but afterwards you just want to say thank you and you're wondering where that goes.
Now you mentioned misalignment and how it's actually the real problem or killer you see a lot - not so much customer buy-in but team alignment and buy-in. Can you expand on that a bit?
Joel: Well, let's take some common scenarios. One we see all the time is CSMs own the relationship. Even though the whole company benefits, marketing is tasked with producing the asset. Marketing goes to CSMs who pretty much ignore them or begrudgingly do it in a way that blocks their own shots. The program can never get off the ground if the team doesn't know how to ask, who to ask, when to ask, where to ask, why they're asking.
Joel: The real killer of most case study programs is that they're 100% reactive and done in pockets and isolation. No process, no roadmap, no shared goals, no consultation - just "go produce this thing." That creates an adversarial environment. CSMs feel like "why are you bothering me, compromising my relationships? I'm already asking them for enough." Marketing feels like "why won't CSMs give us anything?" Leadership just goes "where are the case studies and why aren't there metrics and why aren't they good?" Everyone's running in opposite directions despite the shared goal of showcasing customer work.
To help get teams aligned, you need an SOP. You need somewhere people can go to see the goals, who we're talking to, why, what are the coverage gaps, what are everyone's accountabilities and roles, what formats we're publishing to and why, what are the base question sets. Having this documentation that comes from team conversations is really important. If you want to scale and be effective, it can't always be a five-alarm fire of "Where are the case studies? Go get them!" where everybody scrambles and nobody owns it.
Will: That story rings a little too close to home. I've definitely rung that five-alarm fire bell before and witnessed all of that. I really like the idea of this standard operating procedure - it sounds so logical when you say it, but I've definitely worked with many teams lacking that clarity. Is there a template you recommend people use or is it very company-dependent?
Joel: There are things that should be included in all cases, but it will vary by company. We have a post outlining different things to include that we can share. But talking through it - first, establish shared goals, the why. Have that in a shared place. But it's not marketing writing a mission statement - it's marketing, if they're tasked with operationalizing this, talking to different teams about what they can create that benefits them.
One thing we know for sure about internal alignment is that teams are more likely to participate in a process they helped shape. It's not thrust on them, it's built with and for them. Include roles and responsibilities, who owns what parts. Mutually agreed upon timelines - if five people want to review drafts, they all need to agree on their 48-hour window or whatever it is.
Define what a win looks like. In conversations, marketing might go to a CSM wanting to feature a client, and the CSM says "the story will be better in six months" or "not now, they're in renewals." One of the most important things is defining shared criteria for when a story is good enough or should be captured. That changes based on the coverage gap - implementation stories might be captured right after implementation when fresh, other stories might need time to show ROI.
Having shared criteria for target roles, what makes a win, documented coverage gaps, readily accessible templates for introductions and asks - all that matters. Both within and outside the SOP, if it's on the calendar it gets remembered, if not it gets forgotten. What event-based triggers can keep teams talking and aligned?
Joel: Is it a Wins Wednesday where the second Wednesday each month you rally team leaders to share what they're seeing in accounts? Is it quarterly? Is it triggered by account maturity? Establish those so everyone knows their role.
You should also establish what templates we fill in or write to so everyone sees the collateral coming out. Include great samples and examples everyone's proud of to show what we're aiming for. We rarely see this, but I saw recently testimonials from internal teams about benefits they've seen from the assets - getting others in the organization saying "this is worth our time investment."
These things can be baked into documentation to eliminate ambiguity, get people looking in the same direction, give instructions for handling wins, and provide a roadmap for collaboration. Because that's what it really is - not rules and regulations, but a roadmap for team collaboration.
Will: Wonderful. We've covered so much here today. I want to look inside your brain and see what you think of as the future of customer marketing and case study work. Where do you think this is going in the next five to ten years?
Joel: I think right now most companies, even those with resources and budget to do better, are still very reactive. Storytelling is reactive - a win is recognized, then everyone rushes to capture the story in reverse. Who's the best contact? What was their buying journey? What concerns brought them here? You have to discover everything backwards to have a meaningful discussion and define goals.
Joel: What we're excited about and trying to influence companies toward is proactive storytelling. How can we get alignment from the start so as relationships unfold, documentation happens by default? When they first make contact and voice concerns or competitor comparisons, that lives somewhere referenceable. When they have an account win, it doesn't just live and die with the sales rep's celebration - it goes somewhere visible to all.
Technology is starting to enable this more 360-degree view of accounts as they grow and mature, so instead of rediscovering the story on calls, you can explore it together because it's known. You can talk more about experience than metrics, relationships than KPIs, because that data exists.
I think we'll also see more connectivity. Companies have customer marketing programs - I heard recently the average person in a customer marketing role has only been there about two years or less. It's a role and opportunity that continues to grow and mature. Right now someone might run an NPS score, another person has a conversation, then we do a customer feedback survey later. I think we'll see more proactive, incremental feedback over time, more regular check-ins, consolidating sentiment and experience into profiles of where customers are at.
The goal is making case study asks feel normal, not like "they've never asked anything like this before." Companies investing in customer marketing are starting to foster that intentional shared vision between client and company. That's really exciting.
Also, with tools becoming more available and accessible, companies are realizing you don't have to tell a story one way, one time, put it in resources and forget it. Everyone's talking about AI right now - at Case Study Buddy we're excited about using these tools to take our human-driven, contextual creation and rapidly deploy it in different ways to support various initiatives.
Joel: It's really exciting because when I started, my perception was "problem, solution, results - how hard can it be?" I learned fast. Now we'll see these things mature beyond just formulaic marketing assets. That's really cool.
Will: Wow, you're describing a very exciting future. I really like how you called it a program - that really drives home how continual these things need to be.
If our listeners could only take one thing away from today's episode for their job tomorrow, what's the one takeaway you'd give to someone who's got that wonderful ask of "we need case studies"?
Joel: I'm going to cheat and combine two - be persistent and begin with the end in mind. Everything we've talked about is ideal. It's wonderful to have an SOP and internal alignment. The reality is as you deploy this, you'll hit opposition, snags, old ways of doing things, people who don't believe in it. Keep the vision of what you're driving toward in mind because you'll need to sell others on it. Be persistent because if you give up at the first snag, you won't build a fully formed program. But I firmly believe if you stick with it, all the wins are in your sights in terms of attention, budget and value placed on this role. Looking at current economic times, these assets are the ultimate differentiator. So be persistent, keep the end in mind, keep having conversations and remain curious because this field will continue to change.
Will: Wonderful. Thank you for all your insights today. If listeners want to connect and learn more, where's the best place to find you?
Joel: Yeah, we share a lot on the Case Study Buddy blog - from reviews of how companies do stories to cool use cases and how-to guides. If you're stuck or need inspiration, go there. You can follow us at Case Study Buddy on Twitter or follow me on LinkedIn. I share often there. My caveat is I don't always reply quickly, but I do always reply. So if you're grappling with something or need a conversation you can't have in your organization, I'm happy to help. Those are the best places, plus myself on Twitter as El Klucky sharing stream of consciousness thoughts as I see cool examples.
Will: Wonderful. We'll link those in the show notes. Thank you so much for your time - I continue to learn every time we talk and I know our audience did today too.
Joel: Yeah, cheers. Thanks for having me.
