Episode Transcript
[00:00:03] Speaker A: Hello and welcome to the Advocacy Channel, a customer marketing podcast brought to you by impact.com for this episode, our host, Will Fraser welcomes Kate Vanass, Director of Customer Marketing at Talkdesk. Kate brings extensive experience building customer advisory boards, awards programs, and advocacy initiatives across multiple companies. Her mission centers on igniting raving fans, driving growth, and building customers for life. In this episode, you'll learn how to design and launch effective customer advisory boards, connect customer happiness to revenue outcomes, and create advocacy programs that help customers shine. You'll also discover the power of customer awards and why leading with empathy is the foundation of successful customer marketing. Enjoy.
[00:00:52] Speaker B: Thank you so much for joining us here today. I know that I'm excited for this conversation. I know that our listeners are going to get a lot out of this, and I'm really excited to dive in and cover what we've got today. But before we do that, I was hoping you could kind of tell us a little bit about your story and your current role.
[00:01:10] Speaker C: Absolutely, Will. And I'm thrilled to be here as well. Longtime fan, first time joiner. So I lead customer marketing at talkdesk, and we define our mission as igniting raving fans, driving growth, and building customers for life. So. So our work centers around three pillars. We have voice of customer, SO which includes advisory board, so both customer advisory board, technical advisory board. It includes online reviews. That second pillar is Lifecycle engagement. So customer community, our awards program, and other appreciation programs we have for customers. And then that third pillar is advocacy and references. So this includes the sales reference program, customer stories and videos and proof points and testimonials, as well as our advocacy program.
[00:01:59] Speaker B: You know, obviously I want to talk a lot about the advocacy stuff here today, but before we do that, you're just going a little off script.
Tell me a little about your awards program. You know, like, is that how does that work for you and what kind of results do you see from there? I know that some people do these, some people don't. I'm just kind of curious what your experience has been there.
[00:02:17] Speaker C: Yeah, so I joined Talk Desk about a year and a half ago, but they've had a customer awards program, a CX Innovators Awards, in place for about six years. And it is really beginning to get more and more momentum within the industry because it has a robust panel of judges that are industry experts and analysts. You know, this isn't just Talk Desk saying these are our favorite customers.
So it's really been impactful to showcase the work that CX leaders are doing to improve the customer Experience. And we hear from our customers that it's helped them get promoted. Well, it's helped them win resources. And I think my favorite outcome I've seen from the awards program is that it's helped customers finally explain to their parents, their in laws, their kids what they do.
[00:03:07] Speaker B: You know, that is amazing. I think that that is a challenge we all face. I think my mom still tells people that I built social media. I don't really know how that came about. Just I think that's the simplest way she can explain it to other people. So very, very cool.
And I only ask that because I do think that the awards programs are really interesting way to drive advocacy, whether it's people just promoting their application or their nomination or award. But I do always think that idea of helping a customer get promoted is one of the truly humanistic, rewarding parts of our job. Yes, you could try to be sure. That probably helps them be a customer for life. But honestly, on some level, it's just also nice to do more for our customer than just deliver the service we said. For the price we said.
[00:03:54] Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely. Well, I think a really important piece of the awards program is that we tie it into other industry awards. So we take the submission and obviously with approval from the customer, submit on their behalf to other industry awards. So now they've received recognition not only from talkdesk, their partner, but from all of these other industry accreditations.
[00:04:14] Speaker B: So that's a really cool idea. But talking about careers and talking about paths, you know, I'm kind of curious. How did you first come to the world of customer marketing and advocacy?
[00:04:23] Speaker C: Yeah, it was indeed a happy accident. So I started my marketing career in more general marketing roles, so PR and events and advertising. And it was when I was working for Expedia Corporate travel in the 2007 ish timeframe. I had a role where I was in charge of communications for prospect and for customers and just started to realize that there was such possibility if I could just focus on the customer aspect. You know, I think at that time, customer marketing was really an afterthought.
So I built a business case around that and was able to focus entirely on customer marketing and then over time build a full team around it. And I realized it was definitely my lane.
So I like to think of kind of marketing overall as akin to trying to get someone to go on a first date with, you know, but customer marketing is about staying happily married for 50 years.
[00:05:15] Speaker B: I like that. I like that idea. And I think that ties interestingly into this, this line. I saw on your LinkedIn profile, right, which is the happy clients and healthy revenue go hand in hand. And so obviously, that idea of, you know, staying happily married for 50 years takes us from a business perspective, this idea of kind of a revenue relationship. And I'm just kind of curious, you know, I think when it comes to a lot of this kind of advocacy, people often struggle to tie it to that revenue line. So I'm just kind of curious, like, how do you look at healthy revenue and how do you tie kind of that happy client to the healthy revenue?
[00:05:49] Speaker C: I love this question, Will.
So I think about a healthy advocacy flywheel really helps customers feel seen, heard, and celebrated. And I think that does directly influence retention, revenue, and referrals. So when you help customers shine, they, you know, the promotions we were talking about, you can help them get the promotion, gain internal support. It really builds that trust. And so it makes it so much easier when it's time to talk about renewal or expansion. It's just a natural next step and much less a negotiation when it comes.
[00:06:24] Speaker B: To that renewal point. This is not when we want to be saying hello. It kind of always reminds me a little like, I don't know, if you ever have experience, you're at a restaurant, server's been cordial, fine. The payment process comes out, and now they want to have a conversation with you. Now they're asking about the night, they're asking about this, and like, we all know what's happening. You know, sure, they're being polite, but it's also like. And I think that as we have opportunities to. To build that relationship from the start of the dinner, if you will, versus just right at the bills when it comes to, like, those renewals? I definitely, definitely see that.
Do you ever have anyone challenge the kind of the revenue contribution of what you're doing? You know, maybe in a healthy professional way, but just challenge it. And how would you kind of help someone who maybe is getting challenged if you experience that?
[00:07:09] Speaker C: Yeah. So I've always been careful to talk about influence on opportunity, closed on revenue, knowing that there's so many different touch points and so many factors that really ultimately drive to that close.
So I think being clear and respectful of that is key, but I wouldn't say that that piece has ever been challenged. I mean, there's certainly programs within customer marketing where it's so easy to tie to revenue. For example, the sales reference program, right. We're providing happy customers to talk to a prospect when that deal closes, we're claiming influence on opportunity.
It's Very cut and dry in that way.
[00:07:48] Speaker B: I mean, I think that, you know, one thing we were just talking about before the show started here today is, you know, you're getting ready for a customer advisory.
Right. And you've built and grown these at multiple companies.
You know, I want to know more about kind of like, you know, how do you design those experiences? How do you think about that? But maybe at the very beginning, you know, that feels like, maybe to me on the outside, that feels like something that is harder to connect to a revenue line, but maybe you can help educate me there and kind of understand, you know, how do you tie customer advisory boards to that influenced revenue. And then, of course, I want to learn all about how you actually make them happen.
[00:08:24] Speaker C: Yeah. So thinking about measuring ROI of cab, the way that I've approached this is, you know, not only with talkdesk, but in previous roles is to look at, certainly to track the air ARR of your accounts prior to engagements and after and any new opportunities, renewals that have come up and try to compare that to the cohort that wasn't part of the cab. So that's been kind of a good point of comparison, but it also pertains to just really keeping an ear to the ground with your sales teams, you know, building that relationship with your AES or your CSMs that have a customer in cab so that when the renewal comes up, they can actually tell you. A big part of this renewal that really greased the wheels was they had gone to an advisory board. They were feeling the love. So having those specific use cases is really key.
We also have a list of customers. We're really eager to showcase their stories, you know, kind of the hit list of customers that we'd love to be able to maybe do a video with or get on stage. So being able to track CAB participants and where we have something referenceable is very key to being able to show ROI as well.
[00:09:36] Speaker B: I was actually just in a conversation about building out some more cabs internally. So I'm. I'm taking real notes here as we go. But how. How do you go about, you know, we, you know, we talked about how do you go about designing these, but maybe we even start a level before.
How do you go about identifying who you invite to a cab? And then how do you make that, like, enticing enough to get good participation?
[00:09:57] Speaker C: That's such a good question. So I think it really, the first step is making sure you have alignment internally and you have a. You have that executive support to underscore the importance of it to make sure that your account teams are really going to lean in and pay attention when they're doing the nomination process.
But I think in terms of how to identify the right fit, we have a CAB and a tab and different functions of each. Right. If you think about kind of SVP and above cab, we're really talking more at an industry level about trends and care abouts the tab. We're getting really deep into product, we're defining solutions. So I think having that view going into it is really important. I've been in some situations where we got really detailed about the ideal cabin roster, right? It was, we want representation from this industry, from this company size, from this geographical region. And you can make it really complex. But I think overall it also comes down to the personality of the individual. So you might have your dream roster based on logos, you want to have these accounts in the room, but if you don't have someone who really values best practices sharing, who can think objectively about the industry, or it's just going to be really quiet, it's kind of a waste. So I think it's that blend between getting the right accounts in the room and getting the right humans in the room.
[00:11:18] Speaker B: I like that idea. I like that idea because that was in fact one of the things in our conversation we were having was this idea that like some customers, some people are just more likely to give us feedback that we can use. And I like that idea, mixing the accounts and the humans and that maybe it's a multi dimensional kind of question here.
I like that. Now when it comes to actually designing a cab and actually putting that experience on, you know, how do you think about designing those? What do you think about getting from them?
[00:11:53] Speaker C: So I think the most important thing is to be curious to start by asking your customers what they want to hear about. So even as we.
So we do that first step of identifying who we want in the room and kind of a high level sketching out of the outcomes. But then as we invite customers and they register for the meeting, we're asking right away, what do you want to get out of the meeting?
What would you like to talk about with your peers and what are you working on?
So that then becomes the basis for the agenda. And then we'll have more conversations with the CAB members in advance of the meeting so that we can personalize and fine tune, but everything is built around them.
So I think that is the most important piece and really holding ourselves accountable to not make it a presentation. Right. Everything is interactive, as few slides as possible.
Just really build it around that discussion.
[00:12:42] Speaker B: I like that. I really like that because I think it's so easy to get focused on what we want.
Right. Like, what is the information we want or what is the outcome we want. How do you think about balancing that kind of. If you want to think. What does a give get? Like, obviously what. I love the idea of, like asking them what they want. And I know full well that my executive team is going to be pushing for what they want. How do I. How do you think about finding that balance and making it feel real and not just transactional? Like, here's a steak dinner, please renew.
[00:13:15] Speaker C: Sign here.
[00:13:16] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly.
[00:13:18] Speaker C: Such a good question. You know, I think some of it comes in trying to hold yourself accountable to a balance. Whether it's. We are going to commit to not talking at customers more than 35% of the time or whatever that number might be, and kind of just thinking about the course of time you have together and how you'll structure that, but also just really taking note to what customers submit that they want to get out of the meeting and what they want to hear about from you and what they want to talk about with their peers. And just making sure that you're creating space for that is really important. I think just kind of overall, in customer marketing, that balance of give versus get is so key. We kind of get to play the role of the fun aunt versus the parent. You really get to know your customers and to understand what's important to them. Maybe they're in the midst of a merger acquisition and they really need to show the value of their team or, you know, what are they striving for? What's something they're working towards and connecting any ask you might have to something that can help them.
Because ideally, acts of advocacy shouldn't all be selfish for the. For the partner. Right. They should really be giving something back to the customer as well.
[00:14:31] Speaker B: Makes sense now. We kind of touched on it a little bit already, but like, you know, connecting value. We made a little joke there about like signing contracts, but do you. Do you let AES in the room? I'm just curious, like, do we let.
Right.
[00:14:46] Speaker C: You mean for when we think about an advisory board.
[00:14:48] Speaker B: Yeah. Like. Like I could see the AES, like frothing at the door. Right. Like wanting to get in there and. And close that deal.
What's your experience around that? I'm just kind of curious.
[00:14:58] Speaker C: Yeah.
So in general, no, it really is more your executive leadership team, in some cases country directors, but it just kind of Depends on the number of people in the room. You don't want to outnumber your customers.
Something that I did at a previous company that worked out really well is it became almost an incentive.
So every quarter there was a spot you could compete for to be like a recap wrangler or a note taker. And that would go to either an AE or a csm. And so they would kind of win the right to be in the room at cab. But it does get a little bit unfair because if their account's in the room and then no one else's account manager's in the room, I think best practice would probably be to not have an AE or CSM them be part of that advisory board just so you can give the customers time with the executives. But it's so important that you keep the account teams in the loop about what you're going to talk about. So before the meeting, you know, make sure that they're up to speed and then certainly after.
[00:15:58] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. I don't think this is about secrets, but it is about focus of intent.
Yeah.
Now we talked a little bit about like proving the value and you know, the AES wanting in there kind of like any last tips or tricks on how to keep justifying these cabs or kind of.
[00:16:19] Speaker C: I think we've touched on it another piece. Kind of just thinking more about those acts of advocacy with CAB members in previous role, we've actually assigned a dollar value to them. So whether it was like speaking at an analyst conference or participating in a webinar doing a customer story. So that's one approach to consider. But yeah, I think just in general, just really thinking about how CAB accounts can be referenceable. Another really important thing because many times your CAB will include some of your biggest customers who might have restrictions on what they can do publicly is thinking about that internal voice of customers. So I'm really fortunate enough to have a member of my team that is captures our videos. He's an amazing videographer. So he goes on site to capture our customer stories. So he'll also attend each CAB meeting and do an internal voice of customer video.
And that's important because to your question about AES not being able to be in the room, you want to bring that voice back and certainly we do it with do our due diligence around capturing notes and insights.
But to really have customers go on camera to say something to the rest of your organization and to be able to share that in a video has been really powerful like that.
[00:17:33] Speaker B: That is, I mean the Horse's mouth, right. Like it is amazing how, how people don't believe you until and they don't not believe you but they think there's a nuance they don't understand and then they see the customer say outright this thing and all of a sudden everything becomes clear. I think having that, that there is very, very cool idea.
Now you've been doing this for a little while, you know, you've been building these for, for some time and you've got both buy in at your company and career experience. But I have to imagine today we have somebody listening who has never done this and isn't is at a company that doesn't do it. How do they go about getting a cab stood up at their business?
How do they go about getting buy in doing it correctly? How correct is correct enough Love to kind of get your sense on like, like helping someone for their first time do this.
[00:18:21] Speaker C: Yeah, I love this question. So I think it's helpful to approach it in the form of a pilot and to let your customers know that this is a pilot. Because to me a successful cab isn't just a one time meeting, it's a program.
So it's a period of time, whether you define that as a year or longer where you're going to have multiple engagements with the same customers. Whether maybe some are in person, some are virtual, some are happening in more of an online community type setting. But starting with a pilot so that customers will give you really candid feedback about what worked and what didn't. But really clear objectives about what you want to get out of the cab and how much you'll be willing to action. Because every company is a different culture in terms of how much product feedback they can really take an action. But I think it's important to be transparent with your cab customers about that. So we're collecting feedback on this particular topic will and this will influence XYZ or maybe, you know, we always like to think about the cake analogy. Maybe the cake's already baked and you're just asking cab about the frosting and the decorations. But I think just being real about that and then ensuring you have a really solid follow up plan. So here's what we heard you say, here's what we're going to do about it and then continue to show that progress because you never want customers to feel like they traveled somewhere. Maybe they had a great experience and a lot of fun but then it just died in that meeting room. You really want to show that continuity.
[00:19:48] Speaker B: Yeah, I like that. I like that. One thing you just touched on there that I just wanted to double back on was like this idea of like online or community or in person. Because I could see someone thinking that they need to bring everyone together.
You know, we gotta fly everyone to New York, we gotta do a day long event. And I could see that budget ballooning very quickly. But I mean, we all live in a world of zoom. I'm just kind of curious, like do you think for your first cab a zoom call or some kind of an online call, like is that an acceptable first start or do you really need to go bigger?
[00:20:21] Speaker C: So I think it depends what you're going for. Our technical advisory board is virtual only at this point and we do look forward to something in the future where we can bring everyone together and then it's supported by a private online group. And that works because we're really getting in the weeds. I think when you're, especially when you think about an executive customer advisory board, you need the in person, but there's also a place for virtual alongside that. In a dream world you'd have maybe a virtual touchpoint in advance of your in person meeting. But I think you know, when you're talking about executives, just also because it's so helpful for them to build those connections within their industry with other leaders. You really do need that in person touchpoint.
[00:21:04] Speaker B: Yeah, that's a good point. And if you want to add me to your in person touchpoint the next time you guys are going to Hawaii or Vegas, just toss me on the. No, I think that makes sense.
Any last tips? If there was like a golden nugget, you just want to make sure that somebody hasn't missed from today's conversation. Is there anything that you just want to make sure they take away from today?
[00:21:25] Speaker C: I think overall within customer marketing. So not just specific to cabs, but in general, just always lead with curiosity and around the customer. What do they care about? What motivates them? What can you build for them? Because the best programs don't start with a spreadsheet. They start with empathy and just really making sure that customers are going to find value in them and keep coming back.
[00:21:51] Speaker B: I love that. I love that idea of just like starting with empathy as part of your customer marketing.
That sounds, sounds so good. Instead of, you know, showing up and trying out the latest pitch, let's hear out what they're thinking about. I love that. Great way to piece of advice to kind of end that with there. I've learned a lot here. I've going to be stealing a good chunk of this for some of my own work in the near future. So I'm very happy we had this conversation. If anyone wants to continue the conversation with you, connect with you, find out more things you're thinking, what's the best place for them to do that?
[00:22:20] Speaker C: Find me on LinkedIn. Just look for Kate Vanoss, Kate with the C and I always really enjoy connecting with fellow customer marketers and sharing what's working and what's not.
[00:22:30] Speaker B: Awesome. Well, thank you very much, Kate. We will definitely be eager to share this episode and just thank you so much for your time.
[00:22:36] Speaker C: Okay, thank you Will.
[00:22:41] Speaker A: Thank you for tuning in to another great episode of the Advocacy Channel brought to you by impact.com join us next time as we bring on more expert guests like Kate. If you enjoyed the episode, please review rate and subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts. Want more partnership marketing Insights? Check out impact.com's other podcasts, the Partnership Economy and the Publisher's Playbook. The links are in the show notes. That wraps up another great episode of the Advocacy Channel. We'll see you real soon.
